“Some of our best ideas are still ahead of us”
Using technology to speak up for nature, with podcaster Michael Hawk
This is the second in a series of interviews with inspiring folks. If you missed the first interview with author and veterinarian Elizabeth Hilborn, you can read it here.
Michael Hawk is the host of the Nature’s Archive Podcast and founder of Jumpstart Nature—an innovative, tech-centric conservation organization. I wanted to learn more about Michael’s story of how and why he shifted gears during a 20-year career in tech to start a nature-oriented podcast in 2022.
He is clearly a mission-driven person, and our conversations are always a fun, two-way street of ideas, owing in part to our backgrounds in tech and ecology, as well as our shared values for the conservation of nature.
In a world where technology is increasingly woven into our everyday lives, I’m interested in examining how it can assist us in more deeply valuing and connecting with nature. If this seems counterintuitive to you, you’re not alone! And yet, that’s why I’m excited about Michael’s work—he is finding inspiring ways to employ tech in service of the environment.
I aim to make Hopecology a source for nuanced, “both-and” conversations, where there is ample room for exploration between supposed opposites. These conversations offer fruit for both contemplation and the wise action that follows.
The beginning of the 13th century Sufi poet Rumi’s poem, The Great Wagon, comes to mind:
Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I’ll meet you there…
Onto the interview with Michael!
Andrea Joy Adams: Leaving a lucrative job in the tech industry to start a nature-themed podcast must have taken a big leap of faith or conviction, or something else. Can you tell us more about what led you to make this life-altering decision, and how you took the leap?
Michael Hawk: It was the culmination of a few things. In general, I’ve had a long and continually growing love of nature. I got into hiking and nature photography, and I’d plan vacations around National Parks and other scenic areas.
Conservation and ecology first started calling to me as a possible career around 2010 or so, but the birth of our second child deferred any serious consideration.
But by 2018 it had simply grown too large to ignore, so I started telling my manager and some colleagues that I was planning to leave in 5 years. I took some ecology classes, started volunteering with nature groups, and eventually started Nature’s Archive Podcast.
The podcast wasn’t “the plan”, but rather it was a way to learn, make connections, and share with others. As a result, I didn’t treat it like a business - I didn’t market it at all. It started primarily for me, and anyone like me who wanted to learn too. But it has slowly gained a respectable audience and a stronger reputation.
Around 2021, based on what I’d learned, I started putting a broader environmental communications vision together, leveraging media and technology. I actually had an offer to take my vision to a local mid-sized nonprofit, so that was the trigger for me to leave my tech job in 2022. I felt pretty confident because I’d been able to save a bit of money to give a couple year buffer, given the anticipated lower pay.
Unfortunately, that job offer fell through due to some, I’ll say mismanagement, at that nonprofit. So it was on to plan B - make a go if it myself, as Jumpstart Nature.
I think about the future my kids will inherit, and that I want to demonstrate to them what I think “doing the right thing” looks like. I didn’t want to regret not trying. It’s still unclear whether this will all “work out”, but at least I’m doing it!
Absolutely! What are the major differences between the two different podcasts you produce, besides the fact that you’re the host of Nature’s Archive?
Nature’s Archive is a conversational interview style. It’s long form—about one hour, where my guests and I get into a specific area of interest.
Nature’s Archive covers a lot of topics - sometimes it’s pretty mainstream, like wildlife crossings, wildfire, water management, and bird migrations. And sometimes it’s somewhat esoteric (yet fascinating!) stuff, like phorid flies, lichens, and slime molds. Sometimes those esoteric topics are really popular!
One thing I really like to do with Nature’s Archive is to ask my guests about their communication styles, what works for them, and what approaches they find to be most impactful. I want to be the best environmental communicator I can possibly be—and also share those tools with my listeners.
The Jumpstart Nature podcast is, as they say in the industry, a short form narrative podcast. It runs 20-30 minutes, and looks at a topic from multiple perspectives. We interview multiple people, and tie it together with a narrative that our host, Griff Griffith, reads. Our goal with this podcast is to reach “beyond the choir”. I often think of what we do as filling in the gaps of ecological knowledge that should have been taught in school, but in a fun, entertaining, and actionable way.
One of the things I appreciate most about Nature’s Archive and Jumpstart Nature is it’s clear you and your team work hard to dispel misconceptions and show various angles of an issue. Is there an episode that you think really exemplifies this the most?
When it comes to dispelling misconceptions, I think some of our best ideas are still ahead of us. So, I’m going to take the easy way out here and name two. The Nature’s Archive interview with Lenya Quinn-Davidson was an amazing look at wildfire—all thanks to Lenya’s deep knowledge and her communications experience.
On the Jumpstart Nature side, we have a smaller sample of episodes, but we got a lot of feedback on the “Plant Your Birdfeeder” episode, which highlights the many pitfalls of backyard bird feeding. We recognize that people do the things they do because they care, so we never shame or lecture, but we do try to reveal a path forward—a way to channel that care in a more productive way.
In Plant Your Birdfeeder, we made a strong case to support more than just seed eating birds (which represent a surprisingly small minority of birds), and reduce disease spread at feeders. We didn’t tell people to take their feeders down forever—rather, only use feeders when you can really take on the responsibility of caring for wildlife.
I enjoy how our conversations often turn to the ability to hold multiple truths at once, and the drawbacks of “either-or” thinking in environmental discourse. Can you expand on this for Hopecology readers?
Something that really resonates with me is just how complex biology and ecology are. There are so many permutations and combinations of organisms, relationships, soil, weather, and more.
It’s probably easier to say that every “rule” or expectation in biology has an exception - maybe multiple exceptions. On top of that, nature is always changing. New species are introduced or extirpated; weather is changing; succession is in-progress; and on and on.
So that tells me that I should be open to having my preconceived notions upended.
How do you cultivate hope/or, what brings you hope?
For me, the most important way I cultivate hope is by doing something. There is nothing worse than feeling like things are out of your control - that quickly spirals into a defeatist attitude. Author Margaret Atwood has a quote in The Year of the Flood that sums this up: “We must be a beacon of hope, because if you tell people there's nothing they can do, they will do worse than nothing.”
And Jumpstart Nature is all about inspiring action - helping people cultivate an identity that aligns with their sustainability values, and then giving actionable steps they can take.
Yes, that first step, or even those first ten steps, might not make a major change, but that is true of any journey. You must always take that first step to get to where you want to be. And while you’re taking those initial steps, you can immediately see the impact, no matter how large or small. It’s self-reinforcing.
An antidote to my birdfeeder H5N1 musings :)